Userdoc meeting 2009-01-31 log

[17:21:41] <LivredOr> hi guys :-)
[17:21:51] * UrsaMajor (ursamajor@c-76-119-234-4.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) has joined #dw_docs
[17:22:00] <snakeling> Hello! :)
[17:22:03] <UrsaMajor> hi!
[17:22:15] <LivredOr> hey Ursie!
[17:22:32] * UrsaMajor 's friend cancelled, so I can stay as long as needed :)
[17:22:41] <UrsaMajor> hey livre :)
[17:22:46] <LivredOr> well, it's good to have you for longer, even if it's a shame about your friend
[17:22:55] <kat_fw> hey hey
[17:22:59] <@rho> oooh, hi, people!
[17:23:05] * UrsaMajor giggles
[17:23:05] <UrsaMajor> yes!
[17:24:18] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) Depends on *what* they cancelled. (If it was their funeral, I say that's good.)
[17:24:48] <LivredOr> if my friend cancelled their funeral, it would be veyr strange indeed....
[17:24:52] <LivredOr> hello rho!
[17:26:18] <@rho> who are we still waiting on now? just isa and ande, i think?
[17:26:26] * UrsaMajor giggles. nah, it was just lunch
[17:26:58] <LivredOr> Isa I think is only going be here part of the time?
[17:27:09] <@rho> isa said she moght be late, and that if she was, i should just invite her in and start without her. i'll do that now, actually
[17:27:36] <LivredOr> also Ande posted something about not being able to do IRC on Mac, does anyone know if they sorted that out?
[17:27:39] -irc.xb95.com:@#dw_docs- rho invited isa|zzz into the channel.
[17:27:40] * isa|zzz (isabeau@dcn239-4.dcn.davis.ca.us) has joined #dw_docs
[17:28:31] <UrsaMajor> haie issa!
[17:28:43] <kat_fw> Think so - couple of people said they recommended colloquy to them (*mashes pronouns*)
[17:28:48] <@rho> i don't know, no. i know nothig about macs, so coldn't help, alas
[17:28:52] <UrsaMajor> I remembered seeing that email, but I don't know what mac ppl use
[17:29:00] <LivredOr> yeah, I have no pronoun clue either
[17:29:14] <@rho> is auto-isa, i think
[17:29:17] * LivredOr waves to Kat. Are you my partner that I've never actually managed to meet?
[17:29:35] * kat_fw waves back. I am!
[17:29:51] <LivredOr> yay, glad to meet you then
[17:30:23] <kat_fw> likewise :D
[17:30:25] <UrsaMajor> hmm, does that make ande my partner then? *guessing*
[17:30:35] * UrsaMajor only knows her lj username! *G*
[17:30:53] <@rho> (there's also batdina, who said she wasn't going to be able to be here, and writinginct, who's had to pull out of dw stuff for real life reasons, for anyone keeping track at home)
[17:30:59] <@rho> yes, ursa :)
[17:31:19] <LivredOr> thanks for the update, rho
[17:31:46] <LivredOr> you've pulled together quite a team, I'm feeling slightly over-awed to be here
[17:31:52] <UrsaMajor> hooray!
[17:32:31] <gerg> i think everyone knows me so o/
[17:32:43] * UrsaMajor giggles.
[17:32:54] * V_PauAmma_V will be partnerless, apparently. :-(
[17:33:13] * UrsaMajor just read that as "pantless," and was wondering how a crab wore pants in the first place >_>
[17:33:28] <LivredOr> you have enough limbs for a partnership on your own...
[17:33:36] <LivredOr> but yeah, that's a pity that you lost your partner
[17:33:37] <@rho> yes, liv. i'm really excited about the team we've got here
[17:34:06] <@rho> just for the eeting, pau! batdina/cynthia is still with us. she's just not able to be at the meeting today
[17:34:20] <UrsaMajor> ahh, okay *G*
[17:34:27] <@rho> writinginct was partnered with isa, and i've already spoken with isa about that
[17:34:31] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) *nod* She emailed me, BTW.
[17:35:33] <@rho> will just leave it another couple of minutes to see if ande shows up, then we'l get started
[17:35:42] <LivredOr> excellent!
[17:35:48] <UrsaMajor> \o/
[17:36:47] <@rho> i'm logging, and will put the log up somewhere afterwards, to make sure those who aren't here don't miss anything vital
[17:37:10] <LivredOr> that's helpful, thanks rho
[17:37:11] <kat_fw> good stuff
[17:37:33] * UrsaMajor is now known as UrsaMajor|mtg
[17:37:42] <@rho> so don't go badmouthing your employers or giving out your national insurance numbers or anything. because i'm sure you were all planning on doing that :)
[17:38:04] * UrsaMajor|mtg snerk.
[17:38:12] <LivredOr> yeah, IRC is absolutely safe and confidential if the op doesn't promise to log the conversation...
[17:38:23] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) Can we badmouth each other's employer?
[17:38:33] <@rho> no :p
[17:38:47] <UrsaMajor|mtg> heh, i thought most irc clients automagically logged these days anyway *G*
[17:38:50] <@rho> anyway. think that's waited long enough. now let's begin
[17:39:18] * V_PauAmma_V lends attention at a very reasonable rate.
[17:40:31] <@rho> what we'll do is: first if there are any questions you have or things you're wondering aout, ask them now. and i'll either answer them or say "we'll e covering that later". then we'll go through the things that i want to cover. then at the end, if there's any more questions based on what we've been discussing, we'll deal with them then
[17:40:51] <LivredOr> wow, a proper agenda, so organized
[17:40:53] <@rho> so what's on your minds? :)
[17:41:02] <LivredOr> I have no questions yet except "can we start soon please?"
[17:41:08] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[17:41:10] * gerg agrees
[17:41:15] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Yeah, I don't think I know enough to have questions ye
[17:41:16] <UrsaMajor|mtg> t
[17:41:21] <snakeling> No questions yet either.
[17:41:27] <@rho> i can answer that one quickly. the answer is "yes!"
[17:42:07] <LivredOr> eeeeee!
[17:42:20] * LivredOr is calm and sensible, honest
[17:42:23] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles
[17:42:27] <@rho> ok, lack of questions is good. i know i tend to err towards extreme brevity in my communication style, which sometimes leads to people not really following what i'm talking about, and just being confused :)
[17:42:56] <LivredOr> not confused yet
[17:43:28] <UrsaMajor|mtg> (hyoun just went: "oh crap! i have your CLA." It'll be mailed Monday.)
[17:43:48] <@rho> one of the things i'm wanting to try to get sorted today is the "who's going to e working on what" part
[17:43:54] <LivredOr> ok, sounds good
[17:44:04] <kat_fw> yeah, I'd like to know more about that
[17:44:05] <@rho> aha! yay ursie. nagging you aout that was on my agenda for today as well :)
[17:44:05] <V_PauAmma_V> Is there a list of FAQs/topics/whatever assigned/claimed or still available for grabs?</late>
[17:44:15] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods, is curious about how we're thinking of dividing it
[17:44:26] <LivredOr> there's a sort of fake FAQ on the Wiki somewhere?
[17:44:32] * UrsaMajor|mtg nodnod at rho :) sorry 'bout the delay!
[17:44:36] <kat_fw> what sort of timescale are we looking at too?
[17:44:43] <snakeling> http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/FAQ_mockup
[17:45:00] <@rho> http://www.stage2.dreamwidth.org/support/faq.bml is the current latest version of mock-up faq (they're all just either blank or containing dummy text atm)
[17:45:31] * UrsaMajor|mtg snickers at the header text :)
[17:45:40] <gerg> that's LJ code default >_>
[17:46:04] <UrsaMajor|mtg> yeah, i know *G* the voice still amuses me
[17:46:14] <gerg> "Oh boy." is the best part
[17:46:27] <@rho> what i'm thinking we'll proaly do is start off by assigning one faq cateory and one uide per person. possibly only one of the two for people who won't have much time (pau, i know you have a lot of dev work to do as well, so if you only want one, then that's fine)
[17:47:01] <gerg> that sounds reasonable
[17:47:10] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods.
[17:47:16] <@rho> the only thing that's claimed so far is the styles category, which isa is going to do
[17:47:21] <LivredOr> yay!
[17:47:24] <UrsaMajor|mtg> \o/ isa
[17:47:27] <LivredOr> she will do that so incredibly well
[17:47:30] <@rho> since she's working with abby and fu on styles stuff anyway
[17:47:52] <gerg> yayyy :D
[17:47:54] <gerg> that is a good fit
[17:47:54] <LivredOr> do you think we need a "why is there no S1?" question?
[17:48:08] <LivredOr> because I think it will be asked quite frequently
[17:48:29] <@rho> so that way they'll be able to make sure that terminology is consistent, etc. and it also somewhat makes up for her losing her partner, since she'll have stylesy people to ask
[17:48:47] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Hmmm. I think there are good reasons to have a stock for it, but I"m not sure it should be relatively immortalized in a FAQ?
[17:48:48] <kat_fw> I think the styles section will need a lot of work
[17:48:59] <kat_fw> eg editing via css etc
[17:49:10] <LivredOr> yeah, putting it in there would only encourage people in some ways
[17:49:10] <UrsaMajor|mtg> it'll primarily be most useful when people are transferring/just getting started, yes
[17:49:35] <V_PauAmma_V> Perhaps a "differences with LJ" guide?
[17:49:38] <@rho> one thing we'll probaly have will be a "what's different from lj" guide, which will include "what stuff from l isn't in dw" together with reasons
[17:49:56] <LivredOr> ok, that's a better idea than individual FAQs
[17:49:57] <LivredOr> yay
[17:49:59] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods. And we can do the explanation necessary there.
[17:50:05] <kat_fw> but at the same time, I kinda don't want all the FAQs to use LJ as a comparison point
[17:50:14] <UrsaMajor|mtg> exactly.
[17:50:22] <kat_fw> DW should have its own identity
[17:50:22] <LivredOr> no, most of them shouldn't, so a separate guide is a really good idea
[17:50:29] <UrsaMajor|mtg> so if we confine it to the one guide, then we're good.
[17:50:38] <snakeling> Like the guide in Firefox for people coming in from IE.
[17:50:53] <UrsaMajor|mtg> but yeah, we should definitely be talking about our features as our base, and not as a comparison to others.
[17:50:58] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) I can poke at syn, if no one else is interested.
[17:51:14] <@rho> definitely. we want to stand on our own as much as we can. but at the same time, we do need to acknowledge that (at least at first) most people will be coming to us from lj, so will want to know what's different
[17:51:41] <@rho> i don't think there's likely to be any shortage of people interested in syn here :)
[17:51:44] <gerg> I'm interested in syn, your account, or your profile
[17:51:50] <gerg> but yeah. i imagine rho... heh
[17:52:37] <LivredOr> can I have comments?
[17:52:47] <LivredOr> because I think I can explain that in a way that doesn't confuse people
[17:52:51] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) Do you have an idea what will go in misc? Anything we couldn't find a better cat for?
[17:52:52] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods. I primarily do gunk for LJ support right now, so I'm flexible, though probably my best-fit area at the moment is "your account" or "your profile" or "organizing" or "explore," though "relationships" and "reading list" also interest me. So. That didn't narrow it down a whole heck of a lot >_>
[17:53:05] <UrsaMajor|mtg> based on the cats in the mockup.
[17:53:37] <@rho> no clue, pau. *hopefully* nothing. i just included it as a catch all
[17:54:17] <snakeling> I'd be interested in Journal Entries or Organizing, maybe Relationships.
[17:54:46] <@rho> ok. liv on comments. then, hmmmm. how would you feel about doing entries, kat? since the two are similarish, which might be helpful if you two are paired up?
[17:54:58] <kat_fw> That would be cool
[17:55:29] <LivredOr> yay, we can tell people how to make content!
[17:55:38] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[17:56:10] <LivredOr> am I right that we can't embed videos etc yet?
[17:56:11] <kat_fw> They'll do it myyyyyyyy waaaaay! ;)
[17:56:23] <LivredOr> yay!
[17:56:37] <@rho> then.... hmmm. greg on profile, snakeling on relationships? that work for you two?
[17:56:38] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) "First, think about what you want to say, write an outline in a text editor window. Then, get your dictionary to check for spelling..."
[17:56:46] <snakeling> Works for me :)
[17:56:54] <gerg>  that sounds good
[17:57:25] * LivredOr grins at Pau. I won't abuse my powers, not me
[17:58:20] <@rho> do you have any preferences, pau?
[17:59:46] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) Preferences for... cats? I thought I got syn?
[18:01:08] <@rho> for cats, yes. you could do syn, if that's what you want. though honestly, i'd rather leave syn for now, since it's probably one of the less important ones.
[18:01:36] <UrsaMajor|mtg> at least until people start importing their LJ friends ;)
[18:02:02] <@rho> true. though we don't know how that's going to work yet :)
[18:02:15] <UrsaMajor|mtg> yeah, exactly *G*
[18:02:38] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) http://community.livejournal.com/lj_userdoc/691190.html?thread=3983094#t3983094 :-)
[18:02:52] <@rho> am just looking through the faq now. i think ideally, we'd have about us, your account, icons, comms and comm manageent as the other priorities atm
[18:02:57] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) K. Lemme look what's left, then.
[18:03:16] <LivredOr> yeah, icons is a biggie
[18:03:20] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods.
[18:03:29] <@rho> probably we want comms and comm management to be done by two people in a pairing
[18:03:34] <UrsaMajor|mtg> And so will be comms, as people will be able to create them right away.
[18:03:47] <UrsaMajor|mtg> so that should be me and ande then?
[18:03:57] <UrsaMajor|mtg> (are we the only pair left, or?)
[18:04:21] <@rho> there's also pau and batdina left. so you and pau can fight over who wants/doesn't want comms :)
[18:04:24] <V_PauAmma_V> (to UrsaMajor|mtg) No. There's me and batdina.
[18:04:28] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles
[18:04:32] <UrsaMajor|mtg> oh, right! okay.
[18:04:54] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) How about about?
[18:05:41] * UrsaMajor|mtg snerk belatedly at pau's link. I forgot I said that!
[18:05:46] <@rho> that would work, yes. it's also probably one of the smaller categories, which might be good for leaving you time for dev work. provided you're ok with comms, ursie?
[18:06:07] <UrsaMajor|mtg> sure! I'll email Ande and see if she has a preference for one of the two
[18:06:25] <UrsaMajor|mtg> but we can take care of that :)
[18:06:26] <LivredOr> ok, from the mockup it looks like you want a few huge faqs
[18:06:38] <LivredOr> but I'm thinking it might be better to have lots of short ones
[18:06:52] <@rho> no, no, we're having lots of short ones
[18:07:01] <LivredOr> eg what is comment freezing, how does IP logging work, things like that?
[18:07:07] <UrsaMajor|mtg> oh, okay, good :)
[18:07:14] <@rho> the mockup is just "here's an example of a faq that could go in theis category"
[18:07:24] <LivredOr> ah, sorry, I thought it was a complete list
[18:07:27] <@rho> will need lots and lots more faqs adding
[18:07:32] <UrsaMajor|mtg> specifically targeted ones to Answer The Questions :)
[18:07:41] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) Barring marked distaste from batdina, but I'm hoping that with two different categories, at least one will suit her.
[18:07:44] <LivredOr> so not "everything about comments" in one FAQ, then
[18:07:58] <UrsaMajor|mtg> oh god, that'd be overwhelming. *G*
[18:08:09] <LivredOr> that's what I was worried about, yeah
[18:08:42] <@rho> i'm thinking batdina on userpics, probably. since i'm *horrible* at userpics, and you really don't want me to be writing about them unless i have to :)
[18:09:21] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[18:09:22] * V_PauAmma_V nods.
[18:09:45] <@rho> we may end up with a single guide "everything about comments" but that would be paginated and what have you
[18:10:04] <@rho> ok, this is what i've got written down now!
[18:10:11] <@rho> liv: comments
[18:10:11] <@rho> kat: entries
[18:10:11] <@rho> greg: profile
[18:10:11] <@rho> snakeling: relationships
[18:10:12] <UrsaMajor|mtg> or at least anchor-linked up the wazoo *G*
[18:10:16] <@rho> ursie/ande: comms and comm manage
[18:10:16] <@rho> pau: about
[18:10:16] <@rho> batdina: icons
[18:10:16] <@rho> isa: styles
[18:10:16] <@rho> rho: account
[18:10:27] <LivredOr> squee!
[18:10:31] <UrsaMajor|mtg> sounds good!
[18:10:33] <LivredOr> yay, I have a task, I feel so much better now
[18:10:39] <snakeling> yay :)
[18:10:42] <gerg> \o/
[18:10:47] <@rho> huzzah
[18:10:50] <LivredOr> k, so, guides
[18:10:51] <UrsaMajor|mtg> exactly :) we has direction!
[18:10:53] <kat_fw> whoop! (omgI'veneverdonesupportomgomg)
[18:11:08] <LivredOr> it'll be fine
[18:11:20] <snakeling> @kat (neither have I)
[18:11:25] <LivredOr> if you need me to roleplay an ignorant and unhelpful user for you, I'm good at that
[18:11:27] <UrsaMajor|mtg> kat: don't worry, just pimp non-use of the Rich Text Editor and you'll have it in the bag ;D
[18:11:46] <snakeling> Will there *be* a RTE?
[18:11:51] <@rho> if you don't know lj's faq system, you'll want to read http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/FAQ_backend_guide
[18:11:55] <gerg> jesus, please say no >_>
[18:12:01] <LivredOr> Snakeling, yeah, but it won't be the default for new accounts
[18:12:06] <LivredOr> you have to choose it explicitly
[18:12:14] <snakeling> Hide the link?
[18:12:19] <@rho> (and for those of you who do know it, feel free to add in anything i've missed or got wrong)
[18:12:20] <gerg> can we make a big warning box on the page that says "THIS MIGHT BREAK" >_>
[18:12:32] <kat_fw> Gerg: "might"?
[18:12:39] <UrsaMajor|mtg> IIRC, I think Mark likes it, but agrees that it should not be the default for new users.
[18:12:56] <gerg> heh, kat
[18:12:59] <gerg> point.
[18:12:59] <snakeling> Likes it? Shun the non-believer!
[18:13:16] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[18:13:46] <LivredOr> also, there are enough people who are genuinely scared of HTML tags that I would rather it was there, even if buggy, than not
[18:13:54] <@rho> also, when writing the faqs, remember that what we're going for is clear, concise, and to the point. ideally, most questions should be answerable in a couple of paragraphs. if they're not, think of trying to split them into two questions
[18:13:54] <V_PauAmma_V> (to snakeling) I find it very handy when I want to escape all HTML and I don't have access to vi for global wearch and replace.
[18:14:05] <LivredOr> good advice, thanks rho
[18:14:09] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods at rho
[18:14:14] <LivredOr> and we're not having that silly lj-cut system in the FAQs, right?
[18:14:20] <LivredOr> you click on the FAQ and get the whole text?
[18:14:26] <UrsaMajor|mtg> oh god no, please.
[18:14:41] <UrsaMajor|mtg> no requirement of ?mode=full to read the whole thing.
[18:14:44] <@rho> yeah, we're getting rid of that. it's not killed yet, but there's an item in zilla about it
[18:14:47] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) It's out of LJ, and will get out of DW too if it's not already.
[18:14:49] <UrsaMajor|mtg> awesome :)
[18:14:52] <LivredOr> yay, that's good news
[18:15:06] <kat_fw> good.  Makes structuring the FAQ easier too
[18:15:09] <@rho> http://bugs.dwscoalition.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113
[18:15:24] <@rho> see also: http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Documentation_related_zilla_items
[18:15:56] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) Well, correction. It's half-out of LJ. (But still getting completely out of DW.)
[18:17:06] <@rho> basically, the (read more) thing was introduced on lj to try to get around the problem of faqs having too much information and making the basic answer hard to find, but it never really worked. and we're going about tackling that problem in a different way, by having faqs, guides and KBs, so we dont' need it
[18:17:21] <gerg> the 'guide to the FAQ system' looks fine to me
[18:18:38] <LivredOr> right, so we're going to have well-written FAQs in the first place and not need it
[18:18:40] <LivredOr> good!
[18:18:55] <@rho> oh, and also: if as you're writing stuff, you aren't sure how something is going to work on dw, don't be shy of poking at devs, poking at mark and denise, poking at me, or just generally poking anyone you can get your hands on until someone can give you an answer :)
[18:19:13] * LivredOr pokes all round
[18:19:17] <LivredOr> thanks for the reassurance
[18:19:28] <gerg> or go try it, that's what i always do >_
[18:19:29] <gerg> >_> even
[18:19:33] <LivredOr> I guess we are going to need to write the FAQs before we get the chance to create beta accounts and test things out?
[18:19:50] <LivredOr> (though I have an account on Fu's dreamhack, so that's probably a good start)
[18:20:58] <@rho> nope! was going to save this for a bit later on, but now's as good a time as ever. i've spoken to mark about getting accounts for you on stage. i need you all to give me the usernames and email addresses you want to use, then i'll give them to mark, and he'll make an account for you
[18:21:14] <UrsaMajor|mtg> awesome :)
[18:21:18] <LivredOr> can you explain what stage is?
[18:21:20] <gerg> whoo \o/
[18:21:31] <LivredOr> is it basically running the latest version of the DW code, live as it's being developed?
[18:21:57] <@rho> that's it, yep
[18:21:59] <@rho> http://www.stage2.dreamwidth.org/
[18:22:01] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) Integration/betatest server.
[18:22:52] <@rho> all the data from on there will *probably* be migrated over to dreamwidth proper come launch, so give me the usernames/email addresses you'd want accordingly
[18:23:18] <LivredOr> we... get... usernames!
[18:23:21] <kat_fw> oh man, username angst :) 
[18:23:28] <LivredOr> that's too cool, I was sort of hoping, but then I thought nah....
[18:23:31] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles
[18:23:32] <gerg> greg / [redacted] (sooooooooo sick of being gerg.)
[18:23:34] <gerg> :x
[18:23:38] <UrsaMajor|mtg> :D
[18:23:42] <LivredOr> yay, you get greg!
[18:23:44] <gerg> :D
[18:23:44] <UrsaMajor|mtg> i know, i'm torn between ursamajor and lynne
[18:23:44] <LivredOr> yayayayay
[18:23:49] <LivredOr> can I have Liv, please?
[18:24:01] <snakeling> snakeling | [redacted]
[18:24:08] <UrsaMajor|mtg> and knowing me i'll probably end up doing both >_>
[18:24:08] <LivredOr> [redacted]
[18:24:08] <@rho> though obviously, we're at prelaunch still, so there's still a chance that everything will explode and have to be recreated from scratch. though that's not likely
[18:24:15] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[18:24:21] <LivredOr> ok, I won't put too much hope into it
[18:24:36] <gerg> it's still cool to be able to use the live code to test things
[18:24:39] <kat_fw> I'm torn between kat, tka and forthwritten.
[18:24:42] <gerg> and to figure out what links will redirect where and.
[18:24:50] <LivredOr> I thought of asking for Rachel, but after Ursie's experience, decided that would be more trouble than it's worth
[18:25:02] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[18:25:21] <LivredOr> I do not want every stupid teenager who has a friend called Rachel to think I'm her...
[18:25:26] <UrsaMajor|mtg> mine's not that bad! i just get the occasional Very Confused Furries expecting me to be a gay bear graphic designer from the Carolinas. *G*
[18:25:44] <LivredOr> the confused furries are kind of hysterical...
[18:25:47] <kat_fw> Ursa: hahaha, unlucky!
[18:26:17] <kat_fw> although strangely endearing
[18:26:21] * UrsaMajor|mtg is, for people who don't know, definitely a woman, and ... i always forget the kinsey scale orientation, but I'm mostly het. ;)
[18:26:24] <@rho> i'l let the rest of you ponder on your username angst, and we'll move onto guides :)
[18:26:30] * UrsaMajor|mtg grins at rho.
[18:27:07] <LivredOr> guides, yay
[18:27:13] <LivredOr> do we have a list of those yet?
[18:27:15] * isa|zzz is now known as isabeau
[18:27:19] <gerg> i'm really stoked about guides
[18:27:19] <gerg> isa!
[18:27:21] <LivredOr> isa!
[18:27:22] <LivredOr> hello
[18:27:24] <UrsaMajor|mtg> haie isa!
[18:27:24] <@rho> i've done a very very rough lorem ipsumed guide at http://www.stage2.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=31
[18:27:26] <isabeau> (hi! <-- is a me, not an auto-me :D )
[18:27:28] <V_PauAmma_V> (to UrsaMajor|mtg) What's funny is that I kinda know a bear furry in NC (from else IRC) but I have no clue whether he's gay.
[18:27:29] <@rho> hi isa!
[18:27:33] <snakeling> Hello!
[18:27:35] <kat_fw> hi isa!
[18:27:47] * V_PauAmma_V cheers for the manual isabeau!
[18:28:18] <@rho> for now, we're having to build our guides up manually, in the confines of the FAQ system, which is kinda ugly, but it works
[18:28:49] <@rho> in future, we'll get a proper doc system that doesn't suck, and everythign will be much nicer :)
[18:28:52] <LivredOr> ah, so there won't be a distinction on site between a FAQ and a guide?
[18:29:00] <gerg> other than guides in their own category?
[18:29:10] <isabeau> pau: there's an isa manual?  ...er, no, wait...
[18:29:31] <V_PauAmma_V> (to isabeau) You tell me. :-)
[18:30:49] <kat_fw> So what will go in guides and what will eventually go in KBs?
[18:31:30] <@rho> for now, the top level table of contents for each guide will be viewable in the "guides" category, and then all the subpage of the guides will be hidden. i'm also hoping to have some different formatting on guides, to give them a different visual look to faqs (which i've asked phoenixdreaming to do for us), but there'll be no technical distinction between faqs and guides, no
[18:32:42] <@rho> guides will be more like a coherent narrative, while KBs will be more like a collection of facts
[18:33:03] <@rho> the KBs will be the closest in look and feel to how the LJ FAQs are currently
[18:34:10] <LivredOr> ok
[18:35:19] <@rho> for now, we're just going to work on faqs and guides. once they're sorted, we'll move onto looking at KBs
[18:35:29] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods
[18:35:45] <@rho> which will have the sort of thing that you leave out of the FAQs in order to keep the FAQs simple :)
[18:36:40] <@rho> so the question is: what guides do we want to write first?
[18:37:14] <LivredOr> Importing my entries from LJ or another clone
[18:37:31] <gerg> Copying my style to DW
[18:37:40] <@rho> i put a few ideas up at http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Guides_ideas but would definitely like more ideas!
[18:37:54] <gerg> A comprehensive privacy guide?
[18:38:08] <gerg> how to stay off google/what selecting each particular option will do as far as exposure goes
[18:38:11] <UrsaMajor|mtg> privacy and/or security? :)
[18:38:16] <gerg> yeah, that works
[18:38:16] <snakeling> With a whole section on why privacy by obscurity is not a good idea!
[18:38:21] <UrsaMajor|mtg> that would be <3, greg
[18:38:21] <gerg> definitely.
[18:38:36] <gerg> that would obviously include the "public is PUBLIC DAMNIT" philosophy 
[18:39:09] <gerg> (i guess i volunteered for that one, didn't i. 'oops')
[18:39:10] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Probably a real guide on running communities, too.
[18:39:23] <@rho> pretty much, greg, yes :)
[18:39:24] <V_PauAmma_V> What to do if something goes wrong and I'm clueless and confused and have no idea whether it's my style, my entry HTML, a feed, or that user on my watch list who posts memes and huge pics.
[18:39:45] <LivredOr> troubleshooting, maybe?
[18:39:46] <gerg> that's a good idea too, yes
[18:39:54] <UrsaMajor|mtg> ooh, yes, a "how to troubleshoot so you can help support people fix your problem"
[18:40:08] <LivredOr> yeah, I was trying to make Pau's suggestion into something actually doable
[18:40:09] <@rho> we wouldn't word it quite like that :p
[18:40:23] <LivredOr> but yeah, how to troubleshoot for yourself, and how to ask Support in a helpful way if you can't
[18:40:29] <UrsaMajor|mtg> yesss. :)
[18:40:44] <kat_fw> philosophy behind WTF, maybe?
[18:41:02] <gerg> i dunno if that needs a whole guide?
[18:41:12] <@rho> that'd probably be included in a "what's changed from lj" guide
[18:41:16] <@rho> which will be a big one
[18:41:27] <@rho> since i'd like to include the whys as well as the whats
[18:41:31] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods.
[18:41:45] <LivredOr> I'll take the beginners' guide, if nobody else wants that one
[18:41:51] <UrsaMajor|mtg> i guess it depends on how long the whys get.
[18:41:59] <kat_fw> true - I was more thinking of having the "why" as well as the "how" or "what"
[18:42:05] * V_PauAmma_V can't take a guide ATM.
[18:42:15] <LivredOr> no, I think there needs to be a guide about relationships
[18:42:25] <LivredOr> and that should be separate from a guide about not-LJ
[18:42:37] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods at liv, esp. since it's getting its own faqcat.
[18:42:54] <LivredOr> because that's a big topic, and it will also determine the social situation of the site in a big way
[18:42:55] <@rho> i think you'd be a great choice for the beginners guide, liv
[18:43:03] <LivredOr> squee, thank you rho
[18:43:06] <LivredOr> I will do that then
[18:43:28] <LivredOr> because I'm probably going to end up writing one anyway when I coax my non-geeky friends onto Dreamwidth
[18:43:44] <LivredOr> (I stopped proselytizing for LJ a few years ago, but I'm going to start again once DW is halfway stable9
[18:44:18] <@rho> i'd like to do either the "what is dreamwidth" or "what's different from other lj based sites". which are two of the important ones. anyone want to claim the other one of them?
[18:44:44] <UrsaMajor|mtg> I think I'd be more comfortable doing the latter of those?
[18:44:55] <isabeau> (afk sec)
[18:45:05] <snakeling> Curses! Beaten to the post.
[18:45:09] <UrsaMajor|mtg> though I was also thinking that one of Ande/me should do the communities guide. IIRC, she's ex-abuse?
[18:45:22] <@rho> she is, yes
[18:45:34] <UrsaMajor|mtg> so I'm guessing she'd have a uniquely helpful perspective on "stupid stuff community maintainers should not do" ;)
[18:45:56] <UrsaMajor|mtg> though I'd want to ask her about that first
[18:46:39] <@rho> (we're not doing any abuse related docs at the moment, btw. have spoken to D about that, and she's said to leave them be for now, and she'll get back to us saying whether she needs anything from us or whether she'll do it herself/have abuse people do it, when she has a firmer idea how she's handling abuse)
[18:47:33] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Okey dokes - would those aspects of community management fall under it, or is it still separate enough to warrant its own guide?
[18:48:27] <@rho> "stuff that's a good idea for community maintainers to do really please" is fine. just not "do this or we ban your sorry behind" :)
[18:48:41] <UrsaMajor|mtg> okey dokes!
[18:49:55] <@rho> ok, how about: greg takes the security and privacy guide. liv takes the beginners guide. the rest of you go away and think on what you'd like to do and get back to me?
[18:50:06] <snakeling> Can I have the Relationship one?
[18:50:08] <@rho> or is anyone else wanting to claim something now?
[18:50:12] <snakeling> Given that I'm doing the cat anyway?
[18:50:22] <gerg> that sounds good to me heh
[18:50:33] <UrsaMajor|mtg> rho, if Ande does the comms mgmt one, I can take the "differences from LJ/clones" one
[18:50:46] <kat_fw> Do you want the guides for open beta launch?
[18:50:55] <UrsaMajor|mtg> though call that tentative until I email her
[18:51:10] <@rho> sure, snakeling
[18:51:37] <snakeling> Ta!
[18:51:44] <V_PauAmma_V> Oh, and one other thing: I'm familiar with the FAQ backend code, so:
[18:52:03] <@rho> ok, i'll pencil that in, ursie
[18:52:30] <V_PauAmma_V> If you think it doesn't do what the doc says it should, poke me. If you think what it does *according to the doc* is wrong, talk to rho.
[18:52:52] <V_PauAmma_V> (the distinction is important.)
[18:53:29] <LivredOr> Pau, can you explain further, please?
[18:54:47] <@rho> isa, would you like to take a styles guide, since you're doing all the styles stuff? (don't know if you're back from afk yet; if not, i'll pencil you in for that, but can change it, etc.)
[18:55:12] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) If it doesn't do what the FAQ backend doc (what rho linked to earlier) says, it's a bug, and I'm the one best placed to fix it quickly or to tell someone else how to fix it.
[18:56:04] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) If what you think should change is *what the doc says it should*, you (generic you) should be talking to rho, not me. :-)
[18:56:22] <V_PauAmma_V> Er, what the doc says it does...
[18:56:50] <LivredOr> ok, so you're talking about how the FAQ system works, not how DW works?
[18:57:00] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) Yes.
[18:57:25] <LivredOr> ok, I understand, thank you
[18:57:33] <@rho> and if you aren't sure about who to go to (with this, or with anything), come to me, and if it's not something i can deal with, i can redirect you
[18:59:33] <isabeau> (back *reads backscroll*)
[19:00:51] <@rho> right. let's see. think that's guides sorted at least provisionally for everyone now
[19:01:29] <isabeau> and yes re styles guide(s).  not sure what sort of things would be good for guides though \O_o/  (hi my brain is not fully functional yet *slurps more coffee*)
[19:01:47] <@rho> we'll want to do a "how do i migrate all my stuff over from lj/other site" guide too, but we can't start work on that until we actually have a feature to play with though, so we'll leave that for now
[19:02:05] <UrsaMajor|mtg> hee, yeah.
[19:03:06] <isabeau> (and ftr I am definitely planning on redoing the s2 manual because the current one SUCKS LIKE A SUCKING THING. not sure if that would be guide vs KB vs some other sort of documentation, but.)
[19:03:43] <snakeling> \o/ The current one is useless unless you know what you're doing, at which point it becomes useless anyway.
[19:03:49] <isabeau> exactly
[19:04:16] <isabeau> it's kind of like a "teach yourself swahili" book written in swahili
[19:04:17] <@rho> i'm pretty hazy on s2, so i can't give you a quick answer to that, isa. but we'll work it out as we go along
[19:04:57] * UrsaMajor|mtg <3 at isa.
[19:05:27] <@rho> right. what else did i want to discuss. ah yes, terminology
[19:05:33] <snakeling> Maybe there should be two levels of style guide: one for people who don't know S2, but have at least programming bases; and one for people who have never touched programming languages.
[19:05:44] <V_PauAmma_V> thingies!
[19:05:50] <UrsaMajor|mtg> whatchamacallits!
[19:06:00] <V_PauAmma_V> doodads!
[19:06:05] <LivredOr> I saw your executive decision, and I approve
[19:06:10] <@rho> i think that we're mostly pretty much sorted on terminology now. bunch of stuff up at http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Terminology
[19:06:22] <kat_fw> subscribe and access, yes?
[19:06:28] <@rho> yes
[19:06:33] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods
[19:07:33] <@rho> if, in the process of writing your documentation, you come across some other terminology issues (and there almost certainy will be) dont' be afraid to make a call on it yourselves. ask your partners, if you want. come to me if you need to, but don't feel that you have to
[19:07:40] <kat_fw> so it would be "I removed your access" in non-dramaese?  Jut trying to work that bit out
[19:07:49] <kat_fw> *just
[19:08:23] <isabeau> re terminology, I have a Burning Desire to change the S2 layer names.  Especially the user layer (am waffling atm between 'wizard' and 'ui', can take suggestions); theme's okay; layout is confusing since it's also used for the sum of the customization so I'm thinking about 'base' instead, or just leaving it with the confusion.
[19:08:33] <@rho> yes. or "i removed you from my access list"
[19:08:39] <LivredOr> can we get a url at dreamwidth.com/users/rho/reading ?
[19:08:44] <LivredOr> (instead of /friends?)
[19:08:59] <@rho> yeah, there's also http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/URL_renaming
[19:09:04] <LivredOr> isa, that's a really good idea if it's practically doable?
[19:09:27] <isabeau> I've been talking with aveleh and afuna and they don't seem to think it's a problem \o/
[19:09:36] <LivredOr> ooh, nice, thanks rho
[19:09:51] <@rho> yeah, go for it, isa. like i said, i don't know s2 so can't comment on the specifics, but in general, making thigns simpler == double plus good
[19:09:52] <LivredOr> but nixing layout and user would help a lot
[19:10:35] <isabeau> I want to KILL 'user' layer, just because it's counterintuitive and nondescriptive and not useful and hi I have Opinions about this, can you tell?  *wry grin*
[19:10:38] * UrsaMajor|mtg hooray at useful renaming
[19:11:10] <@rho> there's also maintainer/moderator, which is Confusing (see http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Consistency_in_naming). if you and ande can come up with a good renaming for all that, ursie, that would be fantastic
[19:11:13] <UrsaMajor|mtg> and yeah, it always seemed like a futile exercise in semantics to try to explain it
[19:11:14] <kat_fw> I never got into s2 partly because I couldn't get my head around what all the terms meant, so yes
[19:11:32] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods at rho, we will discuss!
[19:12:02] <UrsaMajor|mtg> i was actually ust looking at the discussion on that
[19:12:39] <@rho> be sure to document anything that you (all of you, on whatever terminology) do decide. post it on the wiki, on the mailing list, wherever. just to make sure we all know so we can be consistent
[19:14:04] <LivredOr> good plan
[19:14:25] <LivredOr> can we have a specific wiki page for "ongoing docs discussion" or somesuch?
[19:14:43] <LivredOr> because having bits in IRC and bits on the mailing list and bits scattered all over the wiki will just be annoying
[19:15:08] <@rho> sure. go aheadand make one! :)
[19:15:14] <kat_fw> there's a documentation category on the wiki
[19:15:26] <LivredOr> yeah, but it's still kinda scattered
[19:15:40] <LivredOr> I'll make us a page for putting terminology decisions and other things that the whole team needs to know
[19:16:03] <kat_fw> that would be great
[19:16:21] <@rho> (general rule. if anyone sees a need for something, then go ahead and do it. it makes me happy when members of my team take initiative, since it means less work for me :))
[19:18:35] <@rho> ok, moving on from terminology: the faq system. it sucks. it sucks a lot. the plan here is that we're making do with it for now, but then as soon as we have free devs, we're wanting to gut the system and redo it from scratch
[19:19:04] <isabeau> \o/
[19:19:14] * UrsaMajor|mtg giggles.
[19:19:36] * kat_fw hands rho a crowbar
[19:19:37] <gerg> much needed
[19:19:53] <@rho> i have some ideas for what i want in a new system, but if any of you have any ideas, either now or over the coming months, do tell me. i'll most likely ask for feedback directly before actually writing specs up for a new system to give to some hapless dev, but don't wait until then to share
[19:20:25] <LivredOr> http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Userdoc_Decisions
[19:20:41] <LivredOr> ok, so the FAQ system can be rewritten and keep the same text?
[19:21:18] <@rho> yes. if needs be, i'll copy and paste the whole damn thing voer myself. though i doubt it will come to that :)
[19:21:39] <@rho> and yay liv
[19:22:28] * UrsaMajor|mtg chuckles
[19:22:31] <kat_fw> Is there any way to bundle together faqs in more than one way?  Because yes, it makes sense for all the entries faqs to be together, but it would also be nice to groups faqs by "ok, you've just created your account, here's how to make your first entry/subscribe to some/add someone to your access list/upload your first userpic" and "so you've been here a few months, here's how to do some more advanced stuff" and so on
[19:22:46] <snakeling> faq tagging!
[19:23:25] <kat_fw> kind of - either some sort of tag system, or multiple categories like on wikis
[19:23:31] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) I have a long wishlist of things I (and others) wanted to change about FAQs and the support board but that I never had time to work on, or to trick others into working on. Poke me later and I'll send it to you? (Provided I can remember where the dang thing is.)
[19:23:47] <@rho> some things i want: wiki style markup. separate faqs/guides/KBs. better tracking to see what's getting read, in what order, etc. a split into development faq and live faq, so we could make substantial changes, check them, proofread them, and then push them live once we're happy
[19:23:56] <@rho> kk. will do, pau
[19:24:07] <@rho> and kat, yeah, that's a good idea
[19:24:44] <UrsaMajor|mtg> "how do i change my community's style" is the best example i can think of for a crossover, but yes.
[19:24:50] <UrsaMajor|mtg> tags would rock.
[19:25:09] <kat_fw> is feedback of some kind helpful? like a "was this useful to you, y/n" type thing?
[19:25:37] <@rho> we could have all sorts of meta-data. like, "faqs related to this"
[19:25:55] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Kat: probably best accompanied by a required "why was it helpful/not" if implemented?
[19:26:08] <@rho> then if we have a "was this helpful y/n?" ad they click no, we could show them related faqs, as well as a link to the support system, etc
[19:26:26] <isabeau> just a y/n by itself isn't useful because we can't tell if the problem is us or them
[19:26:40] <isabeau> but +1 to what rho suggested
[19:26:42] <UrsaMajor|mtg> oh, you mean not as a feedback-to-support/docs, but as a "well, maybe this will help?" thing?
[19:27:27] <V_PauAmma_V> "People who read this FAQ also read:..." (And hope Amazon doesn't sue us)
[19:27:27] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods, i like that.
[19:27:36] <@rho> in terms of feedback, it would be awesome if we could track them. see if lots of people were saying no, then going onto some specific other page and finding that helpful
[19:27:36] <gerg> heh
[19:27:45] <gerg> I like the feedback idea yes
[19:28:00] <kat_fw> Ursa: possibly both?  I think getting feedback on why something's helpful or not is useful for us, but you still want to help the user and maybe offering related faqs will be useful for them
[19:28:12] <gerg> I also proposed, in my support rewrite, having it so that users had to search the FAQs first, and what FAQs they'd look at were sent along to submit.bml >_>
[19:28:34] <@rho> an optional "why" would be nice, but i'd rather not make it compulsary, because i think just a basic y/n is better than nothing, which is what we'd get if we made giving a reason compulsory
[19:28:47] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods at kat, true
[19:29:04] <UrsaMajor|mtg> gerg: oooh.
[19:29:11] <isabeau> though that can be misleading if eg I've already looked at FAQ 6, then two days later did a search that returned 6 among others and didn't bother reading it because I already had >_>
[19:29:16] <UrsaMajor|mtg> even if they didn't necessarily read the FAQ closely enough, that'd be helpful.
[19:29:29] <gerg> http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Support_Overhaul_by_gerg , Ursie
[19:29:32] <gerg> if you didn't see it before
[19:29:42] <UrsaMajor|mtg> don't think i did! *opens*
[19:30:00] <gerg> it's from right after the project was announced so
[19:30:15] <kat_fw> Any way of seeing if someone's looked at a faq then gone on to perform an action? eg looked at a filters faq then made a filter? or is that too creepy and invasion of privacy?
[19:31:32] <@rho> it's something i'd like to do, though there could be concerns over that sort of thing, certainly. would be a question for the community at large, really
[19:31:32] <isabeau> (or just "did they follow a link from the FAQ")
[19:32:11] <gerg> yeah, it would be nice. Already, admins on LJ support can look at journals and often see if the user has already done (whatever) but it still would be nice to let everyone
[19:32:54] <@rho> it's also a question of how easy it would be to create. i know wen lj did similarish stuff (ot with faqs, with site nav generally), they brought in outside code for the tracking, which people didn't like
[19:33:21] <@rho> and it may be that doing it ourselves would be more effort than it would necessarily be worth
[19:33:43] <@rho> it's definitely something we'll have on our wishlist though, even if it's something we might not be able to get
[19:34:41] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods - the "third party tracking" aspect was particularly skeevy-making.
[19:35:26] <UrsaMajor|mtg> even if they're supposed to be industry experts, that's one more point of privacy lost, whereas if it's in-house, at least it's someone you trusted enough to create an account with their service anyway
[19:35:54] * kat_fw nods
[19:36:26] <@rho> personally, my ideal would be tracking developed in-house, but with a prominent and easy to find way to disable it for people who wanted to, but also with explanations of what we're using it for.
[19:36:52] <isabeau> yes
[19:37:00] <UrsaMajor|mtg> exactly.
[19:37:01] <LivredOr> that's a bit of a pipe dream, though, it'd be a major development effort with serious social consequences
[19:37:12] <isabeau> transparency about what and why is necessary for nonskeevyuness
[19:37:23] <UrsaMajor|mtg> and the where and when people opt in/opt out for it
[19:37:37] <UrsaMajor|mtg> (on account creation? when they arrive at the support section?)
[19:37:51] <@rho> yeah, exactly, liv. like i said, it will be on our wishlist, but realistically it's something with a lot of hurdling blocks to ever happening
[19:38:53] <@rho> and i think that that's pretty much everything that i wanted to discuss. any questions, anyone?
[19:39:19] <LivredOr> just a technical one:
[19:39:20] <@rho> and i'm still needing usernames and email from isa, ursie and pau.
[19:39:27] <LivredOr> how do we actually work
[19:39:34] <LivredOr> like, you make us accounts on the dev server
[19:39:42] <LivredOr> then we write the FAQs, check them over with our partner
[19:39:55] <LivredOr> and when they're ready, use our faqedit privs to actually put them on the site?
[19:40:03] <LivredOr> or are there some other steps in between?
[19:40:07] <isabeau> oh! missed that bit.  isabeau / [redacted]
[19:40:10] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) You need them for?
[19:40:26] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods at rho. Um. Go with ursamajor / [redacted] for now, easiest thing *G*
[19:40:45] <V_PauAmma_V> Oh, stage2 account?.
[19:41:58] <@rho> nope, that's it, liv. for now, use faqedit/faqadd as you see fit. if you want to mock something up and put it on site, either to show to your partner, or to help the way you work, feel free. obviosuly, that'll change as we go into open beta, but for now, do it however you want
[19:42:24] <LivredOr> ok, sounds good to me
[19:43:06] <@rho> if you want feedback at any stage, i'm happy to provide it. and it's probably best to get some before you go too far in, ust to make sure you're heading in the right sort of direction
[19:43:25] <@rho> but by and large, i trust you to be autonomous, and i won't be breathing down your necks or anything
[19:43:38] <@rho> and yes, pau. stage2 account
[19:44:04] <gerg> oh, are we going to be using LJ's betasettings page or the old one?
[19:44:59] <@rho> i think we're using the new one, but wouldn't swear to it. ask Denise
[19:45:21] <V_PauAmma_V> (to gerg) The new one, I think. Mark and Janine imported it.
[19:45:29] <gerg> okay
[19:46:41] <@rho> any othe questions?
[19:47:07] <gerg> nyet
[19:47:18] <snakeling> I'm good.
[19:47:19] <UrsaMajor|mtg> not yet ;)
[19:47:20] <LivredOr> I'm happy
[19:47:26] <@rho> awesome :)
[19:47:27] <isabeau> why is the sky green-- er, I mean, no, no questions
[19:47:33] <kat_fw> when are we aiming to have stuff done by? open beta, right?
[19:47:37] <UrsaMajor|mtg> is the sun really a mass of incandescent gas?
[19:47:40] <LivredOr> squeeeeeeeeeeee
[19:47:57] <UrsaMajor|mtg> ooh, yeah, deadlines would help me focus *G*
[19:48:09] <LivredOr> can we abbreviate Dreamwidth to dew because DW isn't pronounceable?
[19:48:14] <kat_fw> My supervisor tells me that deadlines help me focus :P
[19:48:18] <UrsaMajor|mtg> drew?
[19:48:20] <snakeling> And DW is Doctor Who anyway.
[19:48:25] <isabeau> hah
[19:48:28] <gerg> i call it "d-dub" >_>
[19:48:32] <kat_fw> so, is rah the doctor?
[19:48:37] <UrsaMajor|mtg> if we start calling DW "the doc" - heeee, greg, i've been saying the same thing D
[19:48:44] <@rho> kat: as much as possible by open beta, yes
[19:48:59] * LivredOr hyperventilates
[19:49:00] <LivredOr> 2 weeks, guys!
[19:49:08] <UrsaMajor|mtg> rah as the 11th doctor. I foresee 
[19:49:13] <@rho> that's closed beta, liv
[19:49:15] <UrsaMajor|mtg> Liv - wiat, that's closed beta, right?
[19:49:25] <LivredOr> ah, ok
[19:49:32] <LivredOr> I am confused by this whole betaness
[19:49:33] <snakeling> Wait, when is open beta?
[19:49:37] <UrsaMajor|mtg> I foresee crazy, cracktastic RPS with Rah as the 11th doctor.
[19:49:37] <LivredOr> closed means it's just people who pay?
[19:49:50] <LivredOr> and open we don't have a deadline for yet?
[19:49:57] <gerg> closed is invite codes only. starting 2/14
[19:49:58] <kat_fw> closed is devs and docs and a few betatester, right?
[19:50:03] <gerg> iirc?
[19:50:04] <UrsaMajor|mtg> closed is just beta testers and - yeah.
[19:50:14] <UrsaMajor|mtg> open is when people can start throwing money around
[19:50:16] <gerg> but invite codes won't be generated until open
[19:50:25] <LivredOr> it's all exciting
[19:50:29] * @rho nods. what they said
[19:51:19] <@rho> also remember that there are a few faqcats left over above and beyond what's assigned. which we'll dole out once people start finishing what they're doing first
[19:51:44] <UrsaMajor|mtg> *nodnod*
[19:51:49] <@rho> so don't have everyone aim to finish exactly three minutes before open beta launch or anything :)
[19:51:49] <LivredOr> ok, sounds good
[19:51:51] * isabeau eyes her faqcat. I suspect it will keep me occupied for a while >_>
[19:52:09] <@rho> yeah. some of the existing ones are larger than other
[19:52:13] <UrsaMajor|mtg> true, and you'll probably want to delegate at some point ;)
[19:52:26] <isabeau> ursa: before or after I go insane? ;)
[19:52:32] <UrsaMajor|mtg> hopefully before!
[19:52:41] <@rho> and different people will work at different speeds, have differing levels of other commitments, etc.
[19:52:57] <isabeau> (or is it too late for that >_> )
[19:53:33] <snakeling> Is there an official calendar thingy we can subscribe to?
[19:53:55] <@rho> so once we get into things, we'll revisit things occasionally, make reassignments "ok, you've finished there, so go help work on that one because it's huge. and you've finished that, so go work on the other instead. but you're still working on this, so carry on here"
[19:53:56] <UrsaMajor|mtg> snakeling, what do you mean?
[19:54:17] <UrsaMajor|mtg> like, docs-specific? or like site-launch-timeline?
[19:54:19] <snakeling> For the dates for the closed/open betas.
[19:54:22] <UrsaMajor|mtg> -specific
[19:54:25] <snakeling> site-launch-timeline
[19:54:40] <snakeling> Though I wouldn't object to docs-specific, actually.
[19:54:41] <V_PauAmma_V> (to snakeling) There's one on the wiki, I think.
[19:54:48] <UrsaMajor|mtg> ahh! ... not that I'm aware of, i just know it's feb 14 because of IRC
[19:55:28] <@rho> oooh, mark's woke up. i'll ask him if he can sort out your accounts now
[19:55:30] * UrsaMajor|mtg nods, i think a docs-specific timeline would be useful, but I know that at least for myself, I"m gonna try to schedule my docs out as much as possible.
[19:55:58] <LivredOr> eeee! accounts!
[19:56:03] <snakeling> Me too, but it'd be useful to have something to refer to in case of mixed-date panic.
[19:56:16] <UrsaMajor|mtg> yes *G*
[19:56:19] <snakeling> @Pau I found this one, but it's not what I meant: http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Dreamwidth_Timeline
[19:56:39] <snakeling> Ah, here: http://wiki.dwscoalition.org/notes/Dreamwidth.org:_Launch_timeline
[19:57:41] <snakeling> But I was speaking more of something you could subscribe to in google Calendar and such.
[19:57:53] <@rho> yeah. i don't know of anything beyond that. probably best is just to keep an eye on the various mailing lists. i'm sure any dates will get announced there
[19:58:14] <LivredOr> kk
[19:58:52] <kat_fw> any thoughts about having a userdoc specific mailing list?
[19:59:21] <LivredOr> there is one already, isn't there?
[19:59:28] <UrsaMajor|mtg> kat: aside from dw-docs, you mean? to keep faq-specific stuff separate from site-copy stuff?
[19:59:56] <kat_fw> ursa: yes.  there's a documentation mailing list, but that's both us and the site copy team
[20:00:38] <LivredOr> I don't think we need YAML
[20:00:41] <@rho> i thought about that for a bit, but decided it was probably best to keep it all in one place. though if consensus is to split up, i'll look into doing that
[20:00:44] <LivredOr> dw-docs is not high traffic
[20:00:54] <UrsaMajor|mtg> true. We don't bikeshed much yet. ;)
[20:01:05] <UrsaMajor|mtg> and hopefully we don't ever <_<
[20:01:05] <isabeau> heh
[20:01:21] <UrsaMajor|mtg> (this is what wiki talk pages are for! ;) )
[20:02:23] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) *blink* Why did YAML enter the picture?
[20:02:35] * snakeling (doctor@mne69-8-82-247-36-130.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client exited)
[20:02:50] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) Oh, Mailing List, Not MetaLanguage. Never mind.
[20:02:53] <isabeau> haha
[20:03:22] <LivredOr> quite right, sorry
[20:03:30] * mac (mac@CPE00179a29c727-CM00195efba0ac.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #dw_docs
[20:03:34] * snakeling (doctor@mne69-8-82-247-36-130.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #dw_docs
[20:03:35] <LivredOr> I thought the acronym would be transparent in context
[20:03:57] <snakeling> Sorry about that; Pidgin died on me.
[20:04:07] * UrsaMajor|mtg laughs at pau *G*
[20:04:25] <UrsaMajor|mtg> snakeling: no worries, happens often enough *G*
[20:04:32] <mac> (*creeps in* Ande here, was upheld by impromptu family event.)
[20:04:35] <UrsaMajor|mtg> (people pinging out because of flaky connections)
[20:04:38] <UrsaMajor|mtg> HAIE ANDE!
[20:04:52] <UrsaMajor|mtg> hooray, you made it on :)
[20:04:57] <snakeling> Hi!
[20:05:03] <mac> (plz note, i still don't know what i'm doing with Colliloquy.  also, we NEVER do anything on Saturday, unless i have something to do. *g*)
[20:05:18] * UrsaMajor|mtg will PM you with quick summary of what we're up to :)
[20:05:32] <mac> i will try and figure out PM, then.  :)
[20:05:45] <@rho> hi ande! we're just drawing to a close. though i'm glad you made it before we did. since... yeah, means ursie can do that :)
[20:05:58] <@rho> and i'll be making the log available for everything you missed
[20:06:40] <mac> thanks, Rho.
[20:06:49] <@rho> (mark should be making everyone's accounts now)
[20:07:35] <V_PauAmma_V> (to LivredOr) It was. I just had a cache collision.
[20:08:36] <gerg> (oh, rho, please edit my email address out of the log) (assuming that you will but hey)
[20:08:42] <gerg> (we know what assuming gets you)
[20:09:10] <@rho> will do. will do for everyone's, for that matter
[20:09:49] <LivredOr> ah, I munged mine a bit, but I should have thought you'd be sensible
[20:10:05] * UrsaMajor|mtg nodnod
[20:20:07] <@rho> ok, your accounts are now all created! give me a second, and i'll pm you with your passwords
[20:20:22] <UrsaMajor|mtg> :D
[20:20:42] <kat_fw> :D
[20:20:51] <isabeau> yaaaay
[20:20:52] <V_PauAmma_V> (to rho) Anything else? I'm about to get dragged elsemeeting. :-(
[20:20:53] <UrsaMajor|mtg> .ne biybce
[20:20:54] <UrsaMajor|mtg> er.
[20:20:55] * UrsaMajor|mtg bounces
[20:21:00] <LivredOr> squee!
[20:21:09] <LivredOr> thanks for useful, productive meeting
[20:21:24] <kat_fw> should we do this again?
[20:21:36] <isabeau> might not hurt
[20:21:36] <@rho> nope, we're done, pau. would have wrapped up before, except for gettign mark to create the accounts. thanks for coming
[20:21:44] <isabeau> I mean, not, like, tomorrow, but
[20:22:15] <snakeling> Once or twice a month could be good.
[20:22:19] <kat_fw> no, in a couple of weeks maybe?
[20:22:29] <UrsaMajor|mtg> probably a good idea - maybe just before closed beta?
[20:22:37] <kat_fw> just as a way of checking in and seeing if there are any problems
[20:23:05] <@rho> sounds like a good idea to me, too
[20:23:32] * gerg agrees
[20:23:54] <@rho> ok. now i'll go and give you all your privs
[20:24:15] <kat_fw> or create a userdoc community on dreamwidth?
[20:24:36] <LivredOr> Kat, that's a brilliant idea
[20:24:55] <LivredOr> we'll probably still need it after site launch, or whoever is volunteering then will
[20:24:56] <@rho> there is one already, but there's problems with joining communities, because of the WTF change not being finished yet. si we can't use it yet
[20:25:14] <kat_fw> ah, fair enough
[20:25:56] <LivredOr> ok
[20:25:59] * UrsaMajor|mtg grins.
[20:26:17] * kat_fw strokes the shiny account
[20:27:42] * isabeau ... okay, self, plz remember that this is not an actual fully-functional journaling account >_>
[20:27:43] <@rho> ok, you should all have your privs now too
[20:28:19] <LivredOr> shiny shiny account
[20:28:22] * UrsaMajor|mtg :D at isa
[20:30:16] <mac> @isabeau: my first thought was YAY, NEW ICONS.
[20:30:32] <@rho> on that happy note, let's wrap up. i'll post the log up later, and also edit the userdoc team page to reflect the assignents. other than that, let's get cracking :)